Thank you for having standards!
Nov 04 2009
A reader sent me this, from Kimalot Quarter Horses’ web site, and she’s right, I DO like it.
Mare Owner Information
Your mare needs to have the following, prior to breeding consideration. This is a consideration not a guarantee that I will breed the mare.
1. A thirty ‘30′ day clean uterine culture no exceptions as this is possibly the cheapest and most overlooked item in a mares breeding/reproductive history. Many times a mare will not settle due to a low grade infection. A culture is not the same thing as a palpation.
2. No rear shoes and must be currently trimmed with no ragged edges.
3. Current Coggins less than 6 months old (considerations are made to brood mares with current nursing foal at side) with yearly Coggins paperwork.
4. Up To Date (UTD) on shots and worming.
5. Must be halter broke (no exceptions) and be catchable.
6. Out of State mares must have 30 day health certificate.
7. Copy of mare’s papers; if grade provide show history and/or conformation photos.
8. Mare must be well fleshed, healthy looking and vigorous.
** NOTE** If your mare is unthrifty, dull or wormy looking, has curled, ragged or long toes due to lack of farrier work or thrush (hoof disease), can see her ribs (unless due to nursing foal), poor weight, pot belly (unless due to age and breedings-aged broodmares) or otherwise looks like a back yard horse that has not been taken proper care of, please do not even bother contacting me. If you cannot take care of her in an unbred status you have no business raising a foal.
9. Should meet current conformation requirements. No club foots, parrot mouthed or carriers of HERDA or HYPP.
10. Mare care is currently $6 per day dry and $8 wet.
11. Nothing under 4 years of age, I do not breed babies.
I am going to have a couple days next week where I won’t have time to write, so I’m going to do something I haven’t done in a while – invite you to send in your guest blogging submissions. Please do not insert pictures in the document – attach them separately and tell me where you want them placed if that’s not obvious. A text file is the best. MS Word puts in a zillion characters I have to strip out. I can’t promise I’ll use all of them but if you are DYING to get something off your chest about the horse world and I haven’t covered it, here’s your chance! You can be credited or you can be anonymous, your choice. I would particularly be interested in insider reports from training barns if you’ve worked for somebody awful and we do not need to name the trainer, either – I like to cover those topics just so that owners KNOW what sometimes happens and WHY they need to be involved, check on their horses, and check out the trainer before sending the horse. Oh, and I’d love to do one on drugging – again, if you’ve been at a barn that whipped out syringes 24/7 (or you’re there now!) just write it up and I’ll keep it anonymous at your request. Send your guest blog to cathy@horsereunions.com.
67 comments to “Thank you for having standards!”
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Oooh.. e-mailing a guest blog idea now! :O!
*runs off to e-mail*
“I do not breed babies.”
That is AWESOME!!!
This is kind of off topic, but…
I don’t know what an “aqua colt” is, but can someone please upgrade it? http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/grd/1451076994.html
I don’t dispute that list that you posted, but I do question why you would choose to feature a farm that appears to stand for everything you blog about. Both stallions are fugly and unbroken. The mares are sub quality at best and the babies unremarkable. Looks to be a cross of a foundation and crazy color breeder. Why on earth would you feature a link to this farm after all the blogging about how places like this are contributing to the kill pens and rescues? Just like your own stallion, as nice as he appears to be, until he’s proven himself why would you consider breeding him? Has this become `do as I say and not as I do’? Really disappointed in this entry today….
Yes, this is awesome, but what a shame that this lady is so pro-slaughter. I don’t understand why she believes that a trip to the slaughter house is the best way for a horse to die. Look under “information” and “articles” about her view on this.
I would never sell her a horse.
If only there were training standards too. Someone should have said “no” to these geniuses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDISyXmzV0&feature=related
I like her standards for outside mares. If I only featured farms that I agree with on EVERYTHING, I would not have a lot of material to choose from, so we take the topic of the day as an individual issue. You all know what I think about breeding FQH’s with no show record or being pro-slaughter, but that’s not the topic right now.
I don’t own a stallion, but I always fantasize about having one someday, and I agree with the lower age limit, the vet checks, and the conformation photos. I don’t think I would breed to grade mares, either, unless they had an extensive and successful show career (since I’m into dressage and eventing, breed papers aren’t AS important to me as they would be if I were in the stock horse world, but performance is VERY important). I think I would also have the owners fill out a questionnaire with questions such as: “What discipline are you breeding for or what do you hope to accomplish with the resulting foal?” If they say, “I want an amateur-friendly dressage horse who is preferably capable of going to 3rd level or above, and I would like to improve my mare’s canter” then I know they are serious and put thought into this. If they say, “Yer hors is purdy and mine is relly mean and needs a baby so shell calm down so she can be road,” then, yeah… notsomuch. That one goes in the trash.
The Elements Arabians baby factory follows these rules and standards religiously.
In Germany, they jump their foals. It’s no big deal. They don’t do it all the time, and the foals enjoy jumping naturally over a 1ft pole or cavaletti. However, this…. is not ok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3BTeDnysc&NR=1
I think the “aqua” colt is a really mangled spelling of “auction”, cause he’s not any shade of blue!
One thing I would add to the requirements list for breeding is that in ALL conformation pictures the horse must be standing square on a level, solid surface and the photos must show the entire horse from the bottom of the hooves to the top of the ears, AND the photos must be current. Some people take funky pictures (odd angles, posed on a hillside, behind hedges or better yet, rose bushes) to hide major faults. And I’ve personally been sent pictures of a 15-year old horse that were taken when the horse was 3!
Well, personally, I think you could have gotten a better blog post on this farm as a `don’t’ rather than just one small section of the site that is probably a cut and paste. She doesn’t want certain hereditary defects on outside mares, yet she has no problem at all breeding her unbroke, runty ,straight shoulder, common headed, etc. etc YOUNG, unbroken stud. I missed the fact she is pro-slaughter. That right there makes her worthy of being a `don’t’. If only she applied her standards for outside mares to her own herd….
What is she cutting back to go showing as? 4H? I can’t see one of these horses excelling in any breed show ever….
While I agree she has standards for breeding outside mares to her stallions, it appears as though she has no standards for breeding inhouse. Actually when I saw this entry, I got excited because I am going to be in the market for a high-quality AQHA mare but after I saw what she has I was disappointed. lolasl – I have to agree with you.
On another note Cathy, I think it would be fun to start a list with the theme, “You might be a backyard breeder if….” My first entry would be, “You might be a backyard breeder if your round pen doubles as a paddock for grazing.” I could think of so many more. I have a backyard breeder in my midst and get to see all of the things one should never do with horses.
I still disagree with you on grades. I have no objection to somebody breeding a good quality grade mare to a well chosen stallion in order to produce a quality foal for a specific discipline. Key words are ‘good quality’ and ‘well chosen’.
It depends on what you are breeding *for*.
I would also add something to that list.
‘No aggressive mares’.
If I had a stallion, I would not accept any mare that was aggressive to humans, horses, or other animals. Such behaviors may be genetic and if not are likely to be taught to the foal by the mare. Not to mention the potential risk to A. Me, B. My staff and C. My stallion. The last time a horse bit me, the resulting bruise took nine months to clear up.
The post has nothing to do with the rest of the web site, or that farm. All that was commented on was the list of mare requirements for outside breeding mares (which, I think is an AWESOME list). Plus, Fugs has stated over and over and over again, that she will NOT be breeding her stallion UNITL he has PROVEN himself. I’m glad that she’s considering these things BEFORE she decides to stand him at stud, if she does.
There’s no conspiracy. There’s no, “Do as I say, not as I do” doctrine being implemented that I’ve been able to pick up, because I actually READ FOR COMPREHENSION.
Sheesh, people. Read what’s wrote, not what you think is in between the lines…..
Sorry for the small rant. This b.s. of assumption beats fact is really irritating to me. Do people just ’skim’ and not actually read anymore??
Since my breeding days were mostly before the Internet, I did not have a formal public list. However, I pretty much held to the ones listed, except for Health Certs & Coggins. The Morgan world is fairly small and I knew most of the people that brought mares to me & got to know the others once they had their mare at my place. Since I had the Old Type Morgan, which does not get looked at by judges in the show ring, I certainly did not require show winnings in any outside mares. I did ask that the mare had proven herself as a solid riding or driving horse and had correct conformation/type/temperament.
I have to laugh at your possible requirement to have them stand on pavement. I live 2 miles from the pavement and would have to ride out to the road, meet someone to take photos & stop traffic on the road while taking photos–that would be interesting. I could do much better staying at home on our very hard ground (de-composed granite and some very composed granite).
As to the cheaper fees for grade horses, back in the early 1980’s I was able to go through old Western Horseman and Western Livestock Journal magazines from the 1930’s up. Back in the 30’s and all the way up in years, it was common to advertise cheaper fees for grade mares. So this is something that has been around for a while
oldmorgans.blogspot.com
>>Do people just ’skim’ and not actually read anymore??< <
Yeah, that’s exactly what they do.
Mine’s not breeding anything yet – just ask him. He thinks it’s very unfair he has to do all this riding stuff first and would like to be sold to a BYB with fifty mares as soon as possible.
OldMorgans – well, you know what I meant. As in, not on the grass with their teeny little size 00 feet and pigeon toes hidden from view!
Now that i’ve sent my e-mail, fed the horses lunch, and came back to work, I get to write a proper reply!
I don’t think I see a Stallion in my future, but if I did, here’s my take:
My Stallion would be my pride. His offspring would reflect upon me as a Breeder and upon my Knowledge of Conformation/Mating Pairs/Etc (at a loss for the proper word). I would want people to see a foal of his and go “Damn! Where can i get one of those?!” Allowing your Stallion to stand to any mare, grade, fugly, perfect, etc.. gives you inconsistency in his offspring. Breeding to a set standard of horses can truly show you what that stallion is capable of producing.
It reminds me of these people I see offering reduced breedings to grade mares… why? How about reduced breedings to APPROVED grade mares. Example: I have a darling little pinto filly. Refined, delicate, well built… she just doesn’t have papers. Breeding her to an APH with good conformation would result in an absolutely BITCHIN’ baby. Sure, it would still be unregisterable (well, the Pinto Horse people could reg. it).. but would have great worth when it was broke to ride and proved itself a sturdy mount.
Anyways, i’m having a very hard time trying to focus on what I want to say, LOL! So i guess i’ll end it here:
Having standards for breeding your Stallion to a Mare should be something that’s very important to you. You don’t want your stallion to be remembered as the sire of the most Lunch Meat. You want people to cherish his offspring, bring back more mares, and even breed his name onward!
I hope that made a -little- sense.
And lawl @ people skimming!
@noctemare: in Germany, as far as I know, the jumping of foals is not THAT common. Breeders like Paul Schockemöhle with his breeding “factory” are “testing” their foals that way, but the “Joe Average” warmblood breeder basically puts his foals on a meadow after weaning and pulls them back in when they are 2,5 -3 years old.
I’m with SmartChic: I got all excited thinking “Wow, she must really have some remarkable studs!” Soooo, NOT! Oh, well. You can’t win ‘em all! I did notice that she doesn’t seem to break her horses to ride until they are 5 years old. Not an excuse to be breeding a young stallion (should wait to breed him until he’s under saddle, etc.), but I thought that was another good point! Her horses are likely to stay sound longer than most QH’s started young. At least this isn’t a total train wreck… She seems to have knowledge of good care, etc.
OT but too cute – Do you guys remember the ad with the Gulch son that SOS Equines pulled out of the kill pen? He got adopted and his new BO sent his new owner this pic today.
LOL!
Topic suggestion for next week –
The vast lack of awareness among vets and farriers (in general) concerning Equine Metabolic Disorders. Young horses are often misdiagnosed, and nutrition is key. Insulin Resistance is one of the main causes of chronic laminitis and founder, and people could REALLY avoid heartache and horses in pain by proper evaluation of weight and diet. Cresty neck, fat deposits at the top of the tail and behind shoulders are just a few red flags to have a horse tested. In any horse who has already foundered or has chronic soreness in his feet, testing and nutritional adjustments could be key to preventing future problems.
Some horses do not show symptoms before the first founder, but these are not as common. There is a very informative and supportive group on Yahoo called Equine Cushings (IR as well) which addresses acute/emergency care, as well as long-term preventive care. My experience has been to gather as much information from vets, farriers, and people who have been through this before. If I hadn’t made dramatic changes in my gelding’s nutrition shortly after he foundered in the summer, I would have lost him. In fact, he is considered a “miraculous” case by the Equine Hospital in Waller, as well as other vets who have been involved.
Just something I believe many people may face which may also be avoided with increased knowledge.
Shannon
“Her horses are likely to stay sound longer than most QH’s started young.”
Speaking of staying sound…I was shocked when I got my copy of “Horse&Rider” today. There is an ad for some joint supplement on the last page… *irony on* Geeeeez, am I a bad horse owner for NOT putting my 7-year-old grade Paintaloosa mare on that stuff ? Oh, waiiiiiit, she is sound, but this is just a coincidence for sure – this couldn`t have ANYTHING to to with her being started at 4. *irony off*
BWPBaby says:
This is kind of off topic, but…
I don’t know what an “aqua colt” is, but can someone please upgrade it? http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/grd/1451076994.html
———————————-
You know, I actually had a dream the other night about a little gruella horse with a teal dorsal stripe. Very weird stuff… But maybe that’s what they mean?
A good set of requirements with which to start. We will disregard the woman’s other problems, for the purpose of this discussion.
I agree that it is okay to breed an unregistered mare of a specific ‘type’ to a stallion who will compliment her. If she’s a stock type, don’t breed her to a saddlebred. If she’s a saddlebred type, don’t breed her to a stock horse. I’d also require all unregistered mares to have proven in some way that their genes should be passed on.
Saying your grade mare can regularly get a 65% or better at First Level Test Four – here are copies of the tests to prove it – is acceptable and easy to prove. Saying she has run barrels or poles in X time can also be proven. Same for a video under saddle of a working hunter or jumper or polo pony or a horse working a trail pattern just great, or going on a trail ride and being an absolute doll with smooth gaits.
BUT THE STALLION IS GOING TO HAVE TO PROVE HIMSELF TOO. That’s the other half of the equation.
And I agree – oh God how I agree – that if you want a purty foal of this here color that can be road when it is two, we are not doing business. I even wish you were not fertile if that’s how you think and talk.
Snob, aren’t I?
Oddly enough, I’ve thought about this. On the assumption that the only breeds I really love enough where I’d want to own a stallion are Throughbred and Arabian, the rules I was thinking of were:
1. Live covers only. I don’t care if it cuts down business, that’s the way I would know 100% what I’m breeding my stallions to. Also makes pure TB foals eligible for the Jockey Club registry.
2. Limited number of covers per year.
3. Mares must be registered with a real registry. No grades, no sold without papers, no “American Spotted Pretty Paint Family Pony.com” papers.
4. For a TB stallion (I am only interested in TBs bred for racing), TB mares have priority for bookings, and black-type mares with either a proven race record or proven ability to produce succesful runners get priority of those. After that, priority is based on conformation and suitability of pedigree (I don’t like inbreeding and I really hate horses with a bunch of Raise a Native and his crappy ankles.)
5. For an Arabian, registered Arabian mares have priority for bookings. Of those, mares with a succesful PERFORMANCE show, race or endurance record or a proven ability to produce performance horses have priority. After that, conformation and suitability of pedigree for the cross determine priority.
6. Mare owners must submit proof of registration along with conformation photos to be considered for booking.
7. Mares must vet clean for contageous diseases and have been certified by a veterinarian as sound for breeding.
8. Mares from a breed with a known incidence of genetic diseases must show proof of negative testing. In particular, Quarter Horse mares and those from breeds with Quarter Horses crosses allowed in the registry MUST test N/N for HYPP. H/N is NOT acceptable. Mares without these test results will not be booked.
9. I want to know what you intend to produce the foal for, why you want to breed to my stallion/s in particular, and what you plan to do with the foal if it doesn’t work out the way you hoped. Also, if I’m not equipped to board broodmares, where is she going and who will be caring for her?
Meet ALL my requirements and I would probably do the breeding with a LFSN contract.
She says she doesn’t breed babies, but she has a baby by her stallion whose mother was two when she was bred.
http://kimalotquarterhorses.com/Tinker.aspx
Both parents are 2004 models and the foal was born in 2007…??
filly1969 – Good catch. Could be a case of do as I say, not as I do…we’ve certainly seen that before!
Re: live cover. That’s a tough call. I agree that I want to see what the mare really looks like, but I also worry about the danger to the stallion if a mare is a kicker.
OT, but saw this on CL today:
http://savannah.craigslist.org/grd/1451614556.html
Why are people such f*@king asses?
I think the fact that the person who owns this farm is a reader here shows where the majority of the problem lies….So many breeders like this are operating under a complete lack of self awareness…..I’ve read around her site and she talks a really good game. Just like a devoted reader here should, she talks about breeding, conformation and care. Yet, she is apparently unable to look at her own herd with a critical eye. That bay/roan stallion of hers is the fugliest thing I have ever seen. If she didn’t have him listed as a registered QH there is no way I would even guess he was even part bred. Not to mention she offers to train other people’s horses yet can’t get off her own ass and train her own breeding stock. I’m willing to bet there isn’t a single AQHA point among that entire herd nor could there be. She goes on an on about how she never so much as clips a hair off these horses – ever. Maybe a bridle path at best. From the looks of it, she doesn’t believe in combing out manes and tails either….Wow, just wow…
I’m sure most are realizing it, but I’ll betcha the “aqua” horse is AQHA …
>>I think the fact that the person who owns this farm is a reader here shows where the majority of the problem lies….So many breeders like this are operating under a complete lack of self awareness<<
While I would agree with you that’s true, the person who owns this farm is NOT the reader who sent the list to me. Just to clarify.
However, everybody’s tendency to be a little bit barn blind is why I say you HAVE to compete. You have to let someone else judge your horse as compared to his/her peers – ideally a breed expert, which is what a judge is (yeah, yeah, I know, there are some not-so-qualified folks out there judging but FOR THE MOST PART they are experts with many years in their breed or discipline).
Yeah, Fugly, I knew what you meant about standing on pavement/solid ground. Just brought such a funny image to my mind.
Someone else said something about horses posed behind rose bushes, etc. Back in the ’80’s, a Morgan stallion up in the PNW who was fairly popular there had his ad photo of him behind a rose hedge. It was always a full color ad (pricey) with special placing in the magazine (more pricey). All you could see was some of his chest, his neck & head, a some wither. It was a lovely photo, but did raise questions. Also in the 80’s, a stallion back east had a very dramatic photo of him standing in a pond w/only his upper body out of the water. It was an attention getter. The owner did say that he got lots of ribbing about what he was trying to hide. But he also used excellent conformation shots of that horse.
*That* was definitely beside the topic.
oldmorgans.blogspot.com
Whether or not you agree with the QH breeder’s practices or not, it’s correct to list the source of a citation when you get it.
I do find it amusing, however, that we have so much emphasis on Coggins tests in the list — a yearly test is all any state requires, why ask for one no older than six months and the yearly one as well? Seems overboard to me. I would be more worried about the health certificate.
I agree the idea of a lowered stud fee for an unregistered mare is an old one, back in the day when we didn’t have an excess of horses. Registered horses were worth more, but no one thought it was evil to breed one’s favorite backyard mare to a good stallion an get a nice riding horse. Doesn’t it seem like today more people own horses than say, in the 1970s? It was so expensive back then … the few tack shops there were marked everything up 500%. Heck, the word grade hardly has any meaning now anyway, with all the registries that have popped up (AWS, for one), let alone the idea that we can get a “Sporthorse” that is supposed to mean something. I think horse culture has changed a lot, and many people who shouldn’t have horses own them now for whatever reason. But that’s my opinion, not based in fact. Sounds like a good topic for a paper!
I am going to sound like a “breedist” but I have never met a QH breeder I was impressed with. I like her list. I loathe her horses. When I was in the industry, I would meet QH breeders. When I was talking with them, I found out they let their mares foal whereever and whenever they were ready. I heard stories of frozen foals in pastures, shredded foals from predators. I never understood why when you have invested presumably some money and perhaps about 11 months of time into an animal just to allow it to die. When I was in shoeing school, we would have to go trim QH mares that had never been handled, they were pasture bred monsters. Most had serious conformation flaws and temperament issues. If I owned a stallion, I don’t think I would stand him to public mares. I think that he would have a small “harem” of girls that I pick based on temperament, conformation and utility and I would ride the crap out of him. Buyers of these foals would be pre-screened, and known by me personally. As they would see us at shows cleaning up the blues and wanting more :0)
I keep thinking that it would be good to have a blog on common mistakes made by owners who are new to having horses at their own facility. I have always boarded mine, but as I get older and the possibility of getting some acreage seems more realistic, I’ve been thinking about what having them at my own place would really involve. I’ve always relied on the barn owner for a lot of advice and daily care, like how much / what to feed, the type of hay that they get, when and how much to turn them out, how to deal with minor injuries, when to call the vet, etc.
I’d love to have horses at my own place, but I worry about “beginner’s mistakes.” I worked at a boarding stable for a number of years, so I’m not a raw beginner, but it would be great to know some major things people in my situation should watch out for or tend to get wrong. Unfortunately, I’m not qualified to write that blog – just read it, haha.
In defense of Kimalot QH’s, they do look happy & healthy.
OT:
Please somebody upgrade this poor mare…
http://denver.craigslist.org/grd/1450224196.html
I gotta say, I do like what Cathy took from the site and posted about mare/breeding standards. In fact as a mare owner who has contacted stallion owners in the past, I get a little nervous when stallion owners appear NOT to have any standards other than cashing my check. Particularly if you are looking long distance, and you don’t/won’t have the opportunity to meet the horse, you need to have basic health requirements. I have worked with local breeders in a more “relaxed” manner….but healthy was never in question…my mare saw the vet, before, during and after breeding and delivery. Ditto on the stallion/checked and healthy. If you don’t require it from all, it’s easy to spread bad stuff.
On the flip side….not too impressed with anything else on the site…particularly in the stallion department. She doesn’t even know if the younger stallion is 98% Hancock & 100% Foundation or visa versa…..WTF. I looked at the pedigree – there is a TB listed in the sticks in the back..that makes it likely he’s not the 100% foundation. Aside from that if you register with the NFQHA, which she professes to have done, they TELL you what the percentage is….too lazy to look at the papers and put accurate info on your site?? Underwhelming to say the least….and I really didn’t spend that much time on there.
I solve the problem of screening mares to breed to my stallion by NOT standing my stallion to outside mares AT ALL. If someone wants a foal by my stallion, they can buy a baby or buy a bred mare. Period. Saves me lots of hassles, and allows me to control completely which mares my horse is bred to without hurting anyone’s feelings. Sure, it’s good to get money for stud fees, but at this point in my life I prefer to pass on the money AND the hassle. JMO.
“Id hate to have to eat them”
That’s not a very good way to attract buyers!
I know this may sound stupid for me to post, but does anyone know any articles/blogs/etc. about finding good riding lessons? I loved my last trainer but the stable she worked at was terrible and I would definitely not like to repeat that experience again. I know what you should look for but, other than asking around, is there any way to tell if the barn owner/managers are reliable?
I ask my prospective clients if they are going to keep the foal that will result- and make them sign a contract for that foal too- –
If they decide to sell it I get first right of refusal for the exact price they paid for the breeding. No other fees can be included.
Registration documents are given after the foal is born and is considered LFG at 1 month of age.
If they buy a young weanling/ yrling, from me ,and it is on payments and they are behind 3 months, the horse comes back to me- the contract is now null and void. No moneys are returned until the horse is resold and all my expenses are returned., ( Boarding, farrier, vet care, etc)
Mares must be examined 14 days past last date of breeding- failure to do so ( in any timely fashion as in one month) can result in a voided contract with no rebreeding or refunding of money.
This is a business, not a fun day to watch your mare mounted.
it takes time and it is a dangerous business – and so I expect the mare owenr who has a whole lot less to do than i do to follow the contract. I do.
I do everyting in my power to get their mare in foal.
Get the damn mare examined in 14 to 16 days and then if she is not preggie- get her back tp me NOW.
sheesh
If they sell the mare they own, when she is in foal and the foal is slipped or dies- there is no rebreeding – for free- unless I decide I wish to offer this. However, proof of worming and shots/vaccines all thru the pregnancy must be validated.
Oh come on. It’s actually *not* terribly difficult to find an example of a barn that has good breeding practices plus quality horses. The two go hand and hand, don’t they? Or at least they should. Here are some places I found with good mare requirements AND excellent, well conformed, well bred stock:
http://sweetsundayfarm.com/corcovado.html
Holsteiners
Corcovado is currently competing at Prix St George. Although he has shown tremendous ability in dressage his talent for jumping should not be overlooked. While all of his formal training has been in dressage he nonetheless received very high scores for free jumping at the Oldenburg/ISR, RPSI and AWR stallion approvals with an 8, 8 and 9 respectively.
From their breeding contract: Conditions: Stallion service will be provided only to healthy mares in sound breeding condition. The farm reserves the right to require the submission of a recent negative intrauterine culture certificate (within 60 days), and/or a uterine biopsy, and/or Progesterone assay.
http://www.gideonsranch.com/index.php?page=stallions
Quarter Horses
Sired by NRHA’s Newest $1m Sire: Wimpy’s Little Step (2002 NRHA Futurity Champion) by Nu Chex To Cash (NRHA $1m Sire) x Dunits Miss Ace (AQHA Memories in Progress) by Hollywood Dun It (NRHA $5m Sire)
# Placed 11th in the 2008 Rocky Mountain Reining Horse Club Summer Slide Futurity with a score of 215.0
From their breeding contract: Mare must be halter broke. Mare/foal shall be healthy and in sound condition, free from infections, contagious, or transmissible diseases. A current negative Coggins Test, veterinarian’s health certificate, plus a worming and immunization record must accompany the mare. If they do not, Outback Stallion Station’s veterinarian will examine and/or test mare at Owner’s expense. Outback Stallion Station reserves the right to refuse service to any mare/foal not in proper condition.
http://www.smokymountainparkarabians.com/stallions_at_stud.aspx
Arabians
PS Afire Chief+ is our senior stallion, a son of Afire Bey V out of Justa Glow+/ (by The Chief Justice++/) and was retired to stand at stud at the farm after winning Top-Ten Senior Stallion with Kieth Krichke at Scottsdale 2008. “Chief” has an extensive show record and was also National Reserve Champion Park Horse in 2006.
From their contract:
1) That the mare has been examined prior to her shipment date and is in good health and condition to be bred. 2) That the mare has received a current negative Coggins test. 3) That the mare has been inoculated against EW tetanus infection within the past 6 months.
4) That the mare has had Flu-Vac within the past 6 months. 5) That the mare has had Rhino within the past 6 months. 6) That the mare has a negative uterine culture within the last 90 days.
SMPA or its custodian reserve the right to refuse acceptance of the mare under agreement if in the event major medical problems arise or develop which, in the opinion of SMPA or its custodian, would preclude the breeding of said mare, upon notification, this contact shall terminate and the parties shall be relieved of any further obligation or liability hereunder, except the mare owner’s obligation to remove the mare from SMPA or its custodian, at the mare owner’s expense, at which time all outstanding bills and mare owner’s obligations under termination, to substitute another mare to complete the contract.
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This only took me oh, 10 minuets to track down, so clearly it’s fairly easy to find not only a breeding facility that has good mare requirements but also one that has fantastic stock in an assortment of different breeds and disciplines.
I don’t know if you’ve notice this, fugly, but you’re in a position of great influence with this blog. I know you know that this farm is absolutely *not* something anybody would want to use as an example of good breed, you likely just didn’t check. Here is a suggestion; if you don’t have *time* to check out the people you are using as examples (positive or negative) don’t write post that day, we’ll be fine. It’s much better than making embarrassing mistakes that might have a negative impact on some of your less knowledgeable readers.
That being said the horses Kimalot do look like they are in good condition (which is an accomplishment these days, go Kimalot!) they just obviously *should not* be breeding the stallions and most (all?) of the mares.
Guest topic – herd mentality at boarding barns among boarders. Example: I was riding the trails at a place nearby, that boards as well as having trail facilities. I noticed 80% of the horses in their turn out paddocks were wearing bell boots. Did ALL those horses interfere? Or did Sally tell Suzie tell Sam and all of a sudden the boot company’s stocks went up!? (Can’t write it, as I don’t board, just food for someone else’s thought)
As for the stallion…performance, disposition, confirmation, in that order for me. Better yet, the same from an offspring or two before a huge breeding campaign. Same for broodies, job first, babies later.
Gidget64 – AQHA declared starting in 1939 that all horses registered up to and including 1939 were considered foundation regardless of their ancestry so it is possible to have a TB in the background and still be considered foundation, and of course we know the QH was a man-made breed so that does not preclude other breeds from being present.
I will not be breeding my stallion until he is 6 or 7 and has proven himself. I also have a nice mare coming 4 that will not be bred until she is 6 or 7 and has racked up some more earnings. I intend to screen the mares I breed to my stallion and offer deeply discounted rates for proven producers and/or money/point earners. I think that is a good way to atttract owners of quality mares.
Back in 1995 I bought a very pretty Arabian mare based on a video and the word of an “online” friendship. The mare was shipped to me in RI from NC. She was a major handful. The Arabian show barn where I boarded and kept my stallion in training suggested I breed her to calm her down. Of course there were several stallions at this barn, including my own (soon to be gelded though
). While I liked a couple of them, none seemed to be right for her.
The trainer and his wife (a very accomplished horsewoman herself) had plans to breed two of their PB mares to a very famous and popular Arabian stallion in Washington at the time. They had flown out to Washington with pics, videos and show records of their mares to present to the breeding manager of this famous stallion as required. He was the most selective, big name stallion in the biz at the time. His name is Echo Magnifficoo and he had been bred to many national champion mares and was a leading halter horse sire in the ’90s.
Not only was his stud fee $10,000 back then but you had to ship your mare(s) to Washington for breeding as apparently his semen wasn’t so hot cooled or frozen. Add several thousand more. Anyway, after all they went through my trainer’s mares were not judged acceptable by the stallion manager. They didn’t give a reason.
As a joke (didn’t particularly like this stallion and his stud fee and other requirements were ridiculous, IMO), I sent off a video and pedigree of my mare to this stallion’s connections. My trainer laughed and said his mares were of way better quality than mine with better pedigrees and that my mare would never be accepted.
A few weeks later I received a huge package from this farm, including a breeding contract to Echo Magnifficoo! Of course, I couldn’t wait to show it to my trainer who was absolutely speechless. LOL!
I never did breed the mare to him. I found a much nicer stallion in NH. While not a National Champion he did hold multiple regional championships in halter AND performance (Park, English Pleasure and formal driving). He was also well bred (an *Aladdinn son out of a *Bask daughter and bred by Lasma). The foal was fabulous and a big improvement over the mare. However, I decided breeding was not for me (too expensive when you don’t own your own farm). I sold the mare a few years later to an endurance home where she did very well.
I agree with lolasl. This gal may not breed babies, but she still breeds fuglies.
As a trail rider who has no interest in showing what-so-ever I have to say this. I went with my next door neighbor to two fairly large AQHA shows in Spokane. Both times the mare that won grand champion halter mare was a double muscled HYPP positive horse who the owner admitted could never be ridden or bred. My neighbors filly was in the midst of a horrific bout with epiphysitis from which she could barely move and had been stall bound for months on end. Her legs looked horrible and her fetlocks were straight up and down. She won or placed in every class she was put in because she was big for her age (also why she was suffering the effects of epiphysitis due to over-feeding). She still looks awful and may never become sound but wins at the shows!! What I learned was just because a horse does well in shows does not make a hill of beans.
I have a very well bred Missouri Foxtrotter. She is well conformed and a fantastic trailhorse who can go all day long over anything and everything. Her attitude is fantastic and she beats the other foxtrotters at this facility to hell and back with her consistant perfomance on the trail. She is definitely a horse worthy of breeding and if I were to breed her I would look for the finest gaited jack I could find and breed her for a gaited mule.
I guess what I am saying is I don’t get the “show requirement aspect” of all of this. I think everyone should breed for a well conformed (for it’s breed) healthy animal with a healthy mind that can excell at what you want to do with it and hopefully it will possess all the good attributes of both mare and stallion.
Anyone in the Philadelphia area available to upgrade this: http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pet/1451537690.html
Just got my goad. The audacity of some people.
I am willing to offer my time and some funds to help out.
I’ve been to OldMorgans’ place, and I don’t think there’s grass to hide horses’ hooves in, most of the year. You could not have pasture there without irrigating, and I don’t know if she has to get her water trucked in, but a lot of people do.
BTW — the above is NOT a criticism; her horses are lovely old-style Morgans (and one TWH) and well cared for. It’s just the reality of living in the Southern California backcountry hills. (When I visited, I was in a rented car and those miles of dirt roads were pretty worrisome!)
I’m certain that I’m not the only one here thinking this…..Kalligraphy says: “I’ve always relied on the barn owner for a lot of advice and daily care, like how much / what to feed, the type of hay that they get, when and how much to turn them out, how to deal with minor injuries, when to call the vet, etc.” Well Kalligraphy, if you don’t know those things, and you rely on the boarding facility owner to handle those things for you because you are clueless about them, then you shouldn’t even be owning a horse, much less stabling one on your own property. damn, absolutely amazing.
I’m not about to start thoroughly checking out every single link I reference. That would be a full time job and I already have one of those, plus a part time job. Once I post something, it’s up for discussion. I think the good and the not-so-good about this farm has been discussed here, and that’s usually what we do. The list is a good one and brings up many good points about things breeders should consider with regard to visiting mares.
Again, I haven’t had to say this for a while, but it’s my blog. If you prefer to do things a different way, or believe something could be done better, you are welcome to start your own blog. Anyone can start a blog – they are free.
I don’t take orders about how to write, what to write about, or how much research I ought to put into a post.
I am agreeing with lolasl. After looking at her site I was not impressed. Both stallions are fugly and unbroken and have no skills. Why breed if a stallion has not proven himself? Instead we are a back yard breeder (like cats) breeding mares out and never selling the foals. I can see that she has a ton of older “babies” and has done nothing with them. These horses appear to be pets. I would be looking happy and healthy too if I had no job and someone to take care of me 24/7. Did you also see the prices she has set? These AQHA horses have no points ( I am guessing) and no experience why sell something so high? She doesnt believe in clipping? Have they ever seen a brush? I would say that they arent 4H material either.Does this explain why there are older “babies” here? And a bunch of them too. Probably never had a halter on them or been in a trailer. And the pictures are not updated. She has good points on the stallion breeding..better safe then sorry. I still dont think either stud is breeding material.
very o,t,, but….. just got back allergy testing results for our 26 year old mare. among so many other things (cats, daisies and sheep plus soooo much more), she has food allergies to oats, wheat and flaxseed! we intend to get the vaccines made up to help her, but i need to get rid of as many allergines as possible. what on earth will i feed her? she needs super nutrition at this point, even as a pasture ornament, at this age she is no longer an “easy keeper”. she is also borderline on alfalfa. we grow our own coastal hay, no problem there, but she will need a sub for her senior feed. what about soaked beet pulp with vitamins? she is also borderline with barley and soybean, fine with corn, beets, apples, carrots and molasses. if you have any in-put please feel free to e-mail me at vsoejoto@yahoo.com. thanks for any help you may offer.
(horsefever says:
November 4, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Whether or not you agree with the QH breeder’s practices or not, it’s correct to list the source of a citation when you get it.
I do find it amusing, however, that we have so much emphasis on Coggins tests in the list — a yearly test is all any state requires, why ask for one no older than six months and the yearly one as well? Seems overboard to me. I would be more worried about the health certificate.)
I think they are both useless – Coggins and health papers. Last time I took a pony in for a cert, the vet got up in the trailer with the pony. Lifted a lip. Took a temp. Drew the blood for the Coggins and asked “no problems, huh?”. I said nope. “Okay, he looks fine”. That was it. If that was a health inspection, then that’s a joke. I guess since the little guy didn’t have a runny nose or watery eyes or a temp, he was healthy. As for EIA, six months is a long time – what’s to say my pony didn’t get bitten by a mosquito or fly the week after the cert and come down with EIA?
There is no right or wrong, but sometimes “right” just isn’t enough. Don’t ask me what the solution is, since I can’t tell you, but I just think that at times the paperwork is a formality and not really showing anything except that you paid money to drive up to the vets place.
>>>This b.s. of assumption beats fact is really irritating to me. Do people just ’skim’ and not actually read anymore??<<<
Nope, they don't. And apparently (based on the fact that we have pulled the kids from the crappy public school and are homeschooling this year) – this is not a skill taught in the school system anymore, either.
I agree, it is a good list. When you read through her site (mares, stallions, foals, for sale) – you will see she says the horses are in PASTURE CONDITION. Hello, that means they've been turned out on acreage and have not been brought up and brushed, bathed, and pampered daily. They are probably a bit sunbleached from the Texas sun, and they aren't bulked up because they aren't being ridden daily, either. She also has quite an extensive list of what each horse can do – which would tell me she is at least an honest seller.
I LIKE her aged stallion, and I like the way he's bred. Is he perfect? No. Would he be a good working horse? I'm pretty sure he would be. Can you breed to a similarly bred stallion who has a show record for that price? Probably, but that's your money and your choice. I've known too many Hancock horses to be a fan of the bay roan that's so line-bred Hancock…but one of our local vets breeds Hancocks and has many of them sold before they're weaned. So obviously, it floats someone's boat.
Finally, with a working Texas ranch, I would expect that even her green-broke horses have ridden fence, checked colts, and that sort of thing. Would they need polished to see a show ring? Sure. But you're talking about horses that are bred for ranch work, penning, sorting, and roping – not horses bred for the hunter ring or the pleasure ring – and it's really and truly two different worlds with two different kinds of buyers.
THEW said: Oh come on. It’s actually *not* terribly difficult to find an example of a barn that has good breeding practices plus quality horses.
http://www.gideonsranch.com/index.php?page=stallions – Quarter Horses
Did you happen to notice that a lot of their broodmares were foaled in 2007, and are in foal for 2010? Their broodmares are still babies themselves.
Just wondering what the stallion owners here think about crossbreeds. I notice that a lot of people here in the Netherlands are fairly purist about only breeding their own breed. Probably less rigid in the US, I figure.
I have a wonderful (registered) Welsh Cob gelding. Sane, sweet, atlethic, nice conformation, best trail horse I’ve ever ridden, rides english and western, endurance rides, drives, goes anywhere. Were he a mare, I’d love a x Arab foal. Over here however I’d be hard pressed to find a suitable Arab stud that would actually be available to cover a Welsh Cob mare, as most owners don’t just refuse grade, but also often horses of different breeds.
Thew, according to what you quoted in those “good mare requirements,” I could breed any of those stallions to a 2 yr old fugly gypsypaintaloosa, as long as she was healthy. Health is only common sense, it’s not good breeding. Pre-approval of mares by pedigree and conformation is good breeding. Not breeding babies is good health practice. That’s what makes the mare requirements Cathy quoted stand out. That breeder “talks the talk” just fine.
I think I might want to know if the owner’s horses (not just the broodmare) had been shown, bred or worked before 4 1/2. I wouldn’t want to put a baby in their hands. I’d want progeny of my (imaginary) stallion to live long, productive lives, and need neither joint injections nor long-term pain meds.
Cathy said, “I also worry about the danger to the stallion if a mare is a kicker.”
That’s what breeding hobbles are for!
@Cheri – This is a bit offtopic here, but what’s with the vitriol? I’m kind of in the same boat, because I am learning about horse care through volunteering at the local rescue ranch. When I stumbled across a neglect case (free to a good home = I don’t care about feeding this horse), I immediately scooped him up and am currently paying board on him at that rescue. They specialize in elderly, retired horses, and are currently teaching me a lot about the finer details of horse care (what types of feed they use, grain, supplements, even down to which fly sprays and ointments they use and why). I currently go several times a week to spend time with him, exercise him as he gains weight back, ask tons of questions so I can know how to treat him right and what to look out for. However, I have to rely on the barn owner to keep an eye on him too because I don’t live close enough to be there daily. Should he have stayed where he was because I don’t know those things?
Actually, there *is* an answer to the ‘I want to see the mare but live cover is dangerous’ dilemma.
On-site AI. Common on Warmblood and sport horse farms in Europe…the mare is still taken to the stallion owner’s farm, but is inseminated artificially with fresh semen. It’s generally done to both avoid injury and reduce stress on the stallion (He only has to get his leg over about every other day as opposed to several times a day at large studs).
SmartChic – I was not referring to AQHA in my post and I am not sure the breeder is question was either, as she notes her horses are registered with both AQHA and NFQHA….I do understand the registries and how each works having horses registered with both. Irregardless, the point was that she was too lazy to find and place the “correct” information on the website….kind of like the scene in Mr. Mom where he says, “Yeah, 220…..221….whatever it takes.” If it’s a positive characteristic for your horse take the extra 10 minutes, figure it out and post it correctly.
“pasture condition” doesn’t really excuse the no hipped, straight shouldered, slat sided wonders she is breeding. No amount of grooming and shine will every correct those flaws. Also, even if you aren’t showing, horses built like this don’t generally `ride’ as well or stay sound. Perhaps a good blog entry would be conformation and form to function. You breed for traits not just because they look pretty, but of function and athleticism. Maybe her horses have nice minds.
Her older stallion isn’t a bad looking horse. He would probably make a wonderful gelding…..if she had ever bother to break him. He does not have the conformation to warrant breeding him though. Put a hammer head on him and he is not a great looking animal. Her horses do appear well cared for and in good flesh (other than the younger stallion, seriously wtf is up with that horse?), but you can find any number of horses just like hers for $50 at a local auction. I saw several pretty registered AQHA weanlings of all colors run through a sale and not a single one brought more than $200. Guess where most of them were headed to? Its a good thing she’s pro slaughter because its breeders like her that are creating a need for it. It just makes me see red, I’m sorry.
My vote for a guest blog is for one about barn blindness. Just because you love your horse to death (dont’ we all?) doesn’t mean anybody else wants one just like him or her.
Several of the big stud farms in KY are slashing their breeding fees for 2010 due to the economy. There are just far too many good values out there of all breeds, that are accomplished and beautiful that are standing at stud to be breeding garbage. You’ll never convince me otherwise….
Best one I can remember was a perfect gentleman of a Friesain. He was very proper, and tried very hard to do everything right. Even as a youngster, there just wasn’t a mean bone in his body.
He had the thick, long tail typical of the breed, and his owner kept it braided to keep it nice and out of the mud during turn out.
We had a very wet summer one year, and his tail was braided up for pretty much three months. (She took it down while grooming and rebraided, but overall, it was pretty much up.)
Well, she went to ride and left his tail down one day. He hadn’t seen it in a while. She was leading him into the indoor arenawhen he realized this black thing was following him. The result was a scoot ‘n’ boogie that a quarter horse would have envied.
We were both laughing so hard we couldn’t even try to catch him, and somewhere about the fifth lap of the indoor arena, he figured it out for himself and looked appropiately sheepish for the rest of the afternoon.
Regarding breeding. I start horses for a living, and in addition to the excellent criteria mentioned on this site, there are other standards that I think important, based on what I’ve experienced in terms of the physical and mental capablities of horses sent to me for work under saddle:
-Will the broodmare be turned out during her pregnancy, with other broodmares? The support and physical fitness a broodmare achieves by being in a herd makes all the difference in the success of birthing and development of the foal. You don’t see, for example, contracted tendons in foals born out in the open, where they can move the way nature intended.
-Does the foal-to-be have a setting in which she’ll be part of a herd? (This should obviously follow, given that the mare was part of a broodmare band) No foal should be raised in solitary confinement. They need to be running the hills with others their age, developing the physical and mental agility that will make them athletic and handy in their future.
In other words, my view is that there should be no such thing as “backyard breeding.” If you don’t have access to a facility in which the mare and foal can be part of a herd, you’re dangerously inhibiting their physical and mental development, and denying the very nature of the horse. We already ask the horse to compromise so much to cohabit with us; we shouldn’t be compromising those few years of gestation and early development.
Bottom line: we have way too many unwanted horses in this country. Horse population is currently increasing at the rate of about 500K/year, and no, bringing back slaughter will not cure that, given that we were “only” sending about 100K/year to slaughter back when it was legal. The only ones who should be breeding are those with top-notch facilities, with plenty of space and a band of horses, not onesie-twosies who thing it’s OK to have a baby living with just its mama in their backyard.