I blame Dancing With the Stars for this
Nov 20 2009
In recent years, not only have our TV sets been inundated with has-been celebrities dancing in ridiculous outfits, but Youtube and all the horse sale sites have been similarly plastered with “dancing horses.” In case you’re unfamiliar with the training – and I use the term lightly – employed to teach a horse to “dance,” here is a prime example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzI5EXS-eSs&feature=related
Typically, the horse is tied between posts and then flicked with a whip to encourage him to “dance.” Another view that allows you to see the particularly shitacious shoeing job and hear the whistle of the whip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF8E3UCkTcw&feature=related
All so that a human can get on him in a … WTF! shanked bit and do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr2CPy-j-AE&feature=related
Oh, and of course the goal is to sell him … for $1800. Did I mention he is all of 18 months old and still a stallion?
http://www.horsetopia.com/for-sale/classifieds/ad422149
As with most types of abuse against horses, not only are the adults doing it, they’re teaching it to the kids so that the next generation can create even more pissy, sore, lame horses. The Kill Buyers of America thank you for your support!
http://horsetrainersfromhell.blogspot.com/2008/09/teaching-young-riders-to-be-abusive.html
And why wait with the horses too…let’s just put a kid on them as a foal and start with the beatings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0hIqVx54Yo&feature=related
Now, I know someone will pop up and announce that you can train a horse for this kind of “dancing” without abuse. OK. Can you post a video of that? All I ever see is someone whipping on a horse in cross-ties, and that’s not training.
I think of all of this as trailer-park dressage, wanting to approximate some of the movements but skip the years and years of training, but even in the proper dressage world, we have some serious problems. There’s no point in reinventing the wheel here, so I’ll simply show you a site that has done a great job of discussing the abuse issues – Dressage Disgrace. I’ve talked about rollkur before and my opinion hasn’t changed. It isn’t more right to crank the horses head to his chest in dressage than it is to tie it that way in some AQHA show barn or bit him up that tight in a Saddlebred barn. It’s always wrong and it is always likely to create a sore neck, sore jaw, and a pissy horse.
Bottom line, it takes many years of patient and slow training to create any of the “dancing” movements properly. You don’t ask it of a two year old, and you don’t shortcut your way to it with a set of cross ties and a whip. This is absolutely beautiful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPCuo6dxoCY. Note how soft the reins are! How quiet the ride! How the horse looks relaxed – he’s concentrating but he’s not angry or stressed out. Now that’s how you do it right. Too bad so many are too f’ing lazy and/or untalented to achieve this and the result is a stream of discarded lame, traumatized horses that will wind up as a steak. Just sickening.
117 comments to “I blame Dancing With the Stars for this”
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This ‘dancing’ horse crap is like some hick bastardization of the work in the pillars used in classical dressage to school horses in piaffe, levade, and other airs. You can see the work between the pillars done at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna. When correctly done, the horse already has a very nice piaffe under saddle and in-hand before being put between the pillars (as they need to be able to piaffe in place with relative ease).
Shockingly, I found a lovely vid of some arabian trainer who is actually doing the pillars work quite nicely! Note happy, relaxed, attentive horse. And no whip cracking.
I’m glad to find at least one decent video of pillar work. I’ve seen it done a few times, and in the right hands it’s a great tool, or so I’ve understood. But I think it’s also very easy to do wrong, if you don’t have the knowledge, like so many other things. Cracking a whip behind (or worse, on) a horse to get it to step around when it’s all tied up isn’t exactly difficult… unfortunately.
(I´m from germany, so I apologize for spelling/grammar/vocabulary mistakes…)
I´d like to introduce a very famous dressage trainer in germany- but not famous in competition dressage, but in the alternative circles. Watch her teaching the horses to do Piaffe and see the difference.
Her name is Anja Beran- short training videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cev-xluk3T8
(Hope the link works, otherwise use tags: Anja Beran, feine Dressur)
In Eastern Washington we have a large Hispanic population that rides and trains their horses in this manner, in one sense they seem to truly value their animals and provide them with great care (feeding & grooming) and the animals are highly revered by the family. Then the sharp spurs and whips come in to play….hard to be around–then when viewed in parades in traditional dress and dancing horses everyone is in awe. At the last Mexican Rodeo held locally they had security blocking the arena so that “outsiders” could not see in…I’m sure there was burro and foal tripping/roping. Any ideas how to encourage change in a lifetime of customs/training?
Dude. If you want a gaited Paso Fino, go buy one. They do that naturally.
The ridden passage is all about rounding the back to support the rider while still being balanced enough to trot, which whatever this is is not. Poor baby, he’s going to do that whenever he’s nervous for the rest of his life.
That photo of the horse has some funky looking back legs and and awful looking hip. Wonder if its the angle of the picture or if I’m just seeing things…
I never thought it was that bad. I’ve seen dressage competitions and never thought they were abusing their horses (mind you, I was watching Grand Prix, so it could be a different story).
When the guy is riding, it looks like what my OTTB jigging. It tooks me years to get him out of that. Why on earth would you try and make them do that?
Exactly what I was going to say. It looks like jigging to me and I worked hard to make my horse stop doing it.
I’m with you all the way – there is nothing nice or entertaining about seen a horse scared into disjointed steps that they want to call dancing – Spanish Riding School performances – now thats dancing horses.
On a side note rolkur is one of the worst ways of training a dressage horse I’ve ever seen however in the UK the biggest problem is it is widely unknown – most riders simply don’t know about it and are unaware of what it does to the horse.
Oh! That poor little pony! He tried everything to get that kid to stop torturing him. Yeah the hispanics also think its a “sport” to trip horse in their rodeos. I don’t get the macho attitude that says you have to abuse a helpless animal to feel like a man. They don’t believe in gelding their critters either.
Wow. Of course there’s someone in the YouTube comments praising the guy for honoring “tradition”.
This crap is to “dressage” as “bank robber” is to a “career in finance”.
>>This crap is to “dressage” as “bank robber” is to a “career in finance”.< <
Bernie Madoff.
Hey, don’t pin it on us in ballroom. We just torture ourselves with bad shoeing and uncomfortable postures!
I HATE this kind of abuse veiled with the word “tradition”. Tradition is no excuse for riding baby horses and tying them to poles in order to whip their feet until they’re frightened to leave them in place.
Its stupid. Plain and simple.
Years ago I purchased a beautiful Welsh mare that had been whipped in the cross ties like this. The people who did this believed it got the pony to move better inhand . It sure did, she ran like hell at the first sound of a whip crack! It took me over a year to get this pony used to a whip again without bolting and quaking . This pony went on to be a champion driving pony and a superb child’s mount . This kind of Bullshit nonsense is no more a right of tradition nor any part of horsemanship, it is counterfit horsemanship done by morons who have no horse sense nor training skills. There is no quick method of schooling horses . It like saying you need to hurry up and teach your kindergartner Calculus before they learn to basic math.
I don’t know who you’d blame for this except maybe the idiot who figured out smacking a horse with a whip makes them look like they’re dancing. Why spend 15 years getting a horse built for it when you can torture a horse into doing it as a baby? I think you’re right about the horse winding up with the kill buyer.
When teaching the Piaffe (which isn’t until around 8 or nine usually) the lash of the whip is gently touched to the tendons on the rear legs to encourage the horse to pick them up while giving the aids. It is literally a tickle, not a hit.
If I had to venture a guess as to the value of the Dressage horse you posted I’d say at least $150,000, most likely more depending on his lineage. The horse in this ad? Maybe $1000 on a good day, assuming his feet can be fixed and he has any kind of registration.
The only thing I hate about this blog is the inability for me to keep my head firmly buried in the sand and pretend people aren’t actually this stupid.
The dressage stallion in the link is for sale – for 400,000 euro. No, that’s not a typo. Four hundred grand.
Which, of course, means that they don’t really want to sell him. He’s standing at stud in Sweden and has some really impressive offspring.
And those 400 grand euro, with today’s rates, is $602,000.
I would like to take that whip and set of spurs and beat & kick the hell of the moron who taught the little beast to beat his pony! Poor little bugger tried like hell to roll that nasty little monster off , what a tolerant and forgiving pony.
I don’t agree with the way these horses are trained. At least they are fed and watered and usually have a roof over their heads. As we all know there are a lot of horses out there in other disciplines that don’t get daily food or water. Mexicans and other latinos value their horses. I’m glad fugs pointed out the horses from all types of riding are not treated fairly, whether it be rodeo, dressage or western showing.
This fall I attended a prize ride with the Tahoma chapter of the back country horsemen (located in Maple Valley, WA). First, the ride sucked. Second, they invited a local restaurant owner to display his dancing horse. The horse was impressive, but why was he there? He didn’t go on the ride. Does he only know how to dance? While “riders” were watching the horse and waiting for the prize drawing, their horses were being ignored and injuring themselves while tied to the trailer in the heat with no water. Ridiculous.
I might add that I have eaten a lot of Mexican food. In fact, I just had some excellent mole from Mezcal for lunch. The restaurant owned by the owner of the dancing horse not only has the worst Mexican food in Maple Valley, but it is the absolute worst Mexican food I have ever eaten (it matched the service though).
Mezcal has both good food and impecable service. Yum.
Can I ask all FHOTD readers to do as I do??
Whenever, wherever, you find anything at all on the Internet that you consider abuse FLAG IT. Take a minute and do it, do it before you comment, even.
Worst case…they’ll ignore you.
Best case scenario? They’ll take it down!!
Don’t just go on there and swear at them (abuse comes in many forms, remember, verbal abuse is abuse, nonetheless) Do something concrete about it.
If every member of this forum just remembered to flag things, we could make them listen.
OK, maybe not the idiots that actually think this is funny (did you watch the tiny shetland video?? WE think it’s abuse but apparently the good people sitting and watching this Rodeo in California found it hilarious!!) but if we keep removing their “platform” they might be given pause for thought, after all, they put these videos up on YouTube for the publicity.
If they keep getting taken down again, that might actually say something to one of them………maybe…possibly….OK, so it’s more legal than hunting them down and shooting them!
“In Eastern Washington we have a large Hispanic population that rides and trains their horses in this manner, in one sense they seem to truly value their animals and provide them with great care (feeding & grooming) and the animals are highly revered by the family. Then the sharp spurs and whips come in to play….hard to be around–then when viewed in parades in traditional dress and dancing horses everyone is in awe. At the last Mexican Rodeo held locally they had security blocking the arena so that “outsiders” could not see in…I’m sure there was burro and foal tripping/roping. Any ideas how to encourage change in a lifetime of customs/training?”
Believe it or not the people who own and fight Pit Bulls really love their animals too.
Does NOT make it acceptable….we can bypass “right or wrong” it is not “acceptable”
So what are the AC people in Eastern Washington doing about it??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw
this is my favorite dressage video. that mare just looks like she’s having so much fun. there IS a good way of doing it
I’d like t go postal at one of those Mexican rodeos… gimme a gun someone, quick!
I’ll join you…did you hear the crazy croud!!
“On a side note rollkur is one of the worst ways of training a dressage horse I’ve ever seen however in the UK the biggest problem is it is widely unknown – most riders simply don’t know about it and are unaware of what it does to the horse” Are you kidding me??
Of course it’s flipping well known.
Known and WIDELY used, too.
Just take a good look at the Dressage pictures in the Horse and Hound, they ALL have Rollkur nosebands on.
Just take a look in Robinsons Country Leisure…they sell “crank” nosebands to kids!!!
How about the RSPCA actually getting off their backsides and doing something to earn the MILLIONS of pounds they get in interest on the multi millions of pounds they have invested, and going out on a limb (for the first time in living memory) and actually saying something controversial?
Instead of protecting chicken murdering admittedly pretty, vermin, DO SOMETHING, RSPCA.
But, No, there is no bandwagon, and, therefore, the RSPCA will not jump on board.
yup… we know of paso fino trainers that do alot worse than this. they break their colts tied up to a post in the ground and then beat them with a 2 x4. we have written letters but it has never gone anywhere. they are “trainers”. we have retrained a few of the horses they “trained” (not paso finos) horribly abused. i have never seen horses with such emotional problems in all my years with horses. they basically just beat the crap out of the horses. that bit is nothing compared to what they use!!! the amish come in a close second. unreal..noone touches them. i guess its because of their “religion” they are so godly…give me a break.
I’m sure you could teach a horse to do that dancing stuff without beating it into him. Or starting at 18 months.
It doesn’t matter what the goal of the training is, ultimately. Or rather, the goal of *all* training is to have a horse that is happier doing what you ask than not. How you achieve that is with pressure in both directions. Pressure is praise and reward and also reinforcement.
Beating a horse, in my experience, achieves one of two things…possibly both. Either a horse that is so afraid to be touched it becomes aggressive OR one on whom the correct use of a whip has become completely ineffective. If you use a crop behind the leg to reinforce the forward aid on a horse that has been beaten…chances are nothing will happen. It doesn’t know anything about whips other than punishment, it loses the ability to associate consequences.
And no, this crap has nothing to do with dressage. Rollkur is also not dressage. Dressage comes from the French verb ‘dresser’. It’s usually translated as ‘to train’ but the actual correct translation of ‘dresser’ is ‘to lift’. What is lifted, in true dressage, is the horse’s forehand, the hindquarters brought further under the animal. In its true, ultimate expression, ‘dresser’ becomes the airs above the ground…the levade, the capriole, none of which can be performed without incredible engagement of the hindquarters. Modern competition dressage does not use these movements, but rather demonstrates high engagement through the piaffe and the pirouette, which also require it.
Rollkur does not ‘dress’ anything. A rollkured horse is tense and stiff through the back and is performing the advanced movements with the legs alone, it does not round its back…a requirement for true collection. The hindquarters are not engaged…the rollkured horse often does not even track up with its hind end, and thus is still ‘downhill’ and ‘on the forehand’. Again, nothing is being lifted here. Rollkur can cause back and neck issues that then require chiropractic manipulation. On top of that, the unnatural head carriage of rollkur means that the rollkured horse cannot even see where it is going, but only the ground immediately in front of its hooves.
Rollkur is NOT DRESSAGE.
I was riding a seven year old Paint the other day, and fluffed the trot to canter transition badly. He went in flat and…of course…on the wrong lead. However, two strides in, he engaged and lifted, so I decided to continue on the wrong lead rather than mess with him (He’s not the smartest horse in the field and he sometimes gets confused and anxious.) He was cantering beautifully, so I was like, ’screw the lead, we’ll fix that later’. I’d planned on cantering to M…stuck with that plan. Half halted him in the corner, because I wanted to get *this* transition right…and he actually really responded, the forehand came up, the back came up, the hindquarters came under…and, of course, I was flexing him a little to balance through the corner.
Damned if he didn’t execute a perfect flying change! (Note, he’s never been taught to do one). Of course, that’s how you *ask* for a flying change, but I was just trying to make sure he was balanced
. That’s dressage. The horse who is *there* and ready to respond to the next logical aid, even if it’s not something he’s done before.
I’m betting there are people who would argue that ‘that’ is also reining or cutting or even show jumping.
Whatever they’re doing with this ‘dancing’ crap. It’s not dressage.
Question about modern dressage: Do they not use the long reins anymore? I remember seeing them when I was a kid, but I don’t see them anymore – are they just not televised or photographed or have they fallen by the wayside? I can’t see a rollkur horse doing well in long reins at all.
Oh, my goodness. Another eye-opener that makes me cringe! It’s endless. Anyhow, I’m brand new here but I’ll keep coming back for more. I noticed a wealth of information.
That Dressage video was nice. I did see some cues that were less subtle than others, but all in all, the horse does appear very “focused” not pissed. Also, i always, always look at the horse’s tail.. there was minimal wringing. Most of these Dressage riders who are WINNING are on horses whose tails wring nonstop. Thats always a sign of an agitated horse to me. They’re practically waving a flag that says “damnit, i’m pissed off over here”
That video of the weanling/yearling/whatever being ridden and danced was just.. unbelievable. Good Lord. Can we count how many things were wrong with it? Like on the back of “Hi-lights for Kids” when you have to determine what’s wrong with the picture?
If i recall correctly though, there was a horse that was part of a Police Team or something that actually entered a competition with their square dancers. There was no rules saying that an Animal couldn’t be a part of the team, so they brought the horse in and did the electric slide (i ended up teaching this to my horse too! LOL! it’s easy enough if you have a responsive horse, move away from you, move towards you, back up, small step forward, then back, then pivot and repeat XD)
I saw that story on animal planet and was able to train my horse to do it with no tail wringing, whips, or anything. Just.. body language!
Like Kodiman1 said, my TWH has been doing this exact “fabulous dancing” for years. She’ll even canter in place, I can pivot her and everything. And when she get *really going, she’ll start to kick out in the back, then she’ll shake her head in rhythm with her front feet. Looks *cool, we go side to side. At this point I’m trying to explain to her that it’s OK not to always be in the front for trail rides, and that being last doesn’t mean that something is going to eat you. And then I usually give in and we go back to the front of the ride. She then walks out like there’s no tomorrow, head bobbing in rhythm (the right way!), loose rein (snaffle) and all. Question for you all: Tips for unlearning The Torture Dance?
Disgusting.
The only time I stopped scowling for just a second was when that poor tolerant little pony flung that brat of a child into the dirt.
Comment on Eastern Washington AC: As far as horses go, unless it’s dead, AND on the highway, you get nowhere.
One of the first things I look for when watching a horse perform is it’s tail. Swishing, ringing or clamped down tail mean a horse is NOT happy.
The only exception I’ve seen to this is some cutting horses pin ears and swish tails when cutting cattle. They’re not reacting to the rider, but the certainly have a grudge against the cows.
Too funny “The Wonder Horse”…you hit “Submit Comment” before I did:-)
Slightly off topic, but refreshing none the less. I couldn’t help but acknowledge the 21 year old gelding that won AQHA jumping at worlds. http://www.aqha.com/showing/shows/worldshow/09winningrun/jumping.html
He looks great for having a history of racing, barrel racing and show jumping. It’s refreshing to see a sound happy and spunky 21 year old after seeing so many broken babies.
See, I was going to mention Grand Prix dressage as way to teach your horse to “dance” (insert snort-giggle here), but you’ve already done it.
Anyway, why would anyone want to buy the horse in that video? It doesn’t look like it’s dancing–it looks neurotic. And can you envision how annoying it would be to buy a horse like this, bring it home and put it in crossties and have it “dance” incessantly while you’re trying to tack it up? What is the benefit? Thank you Mexico for creating a new kind of steaks race…which dancing horse can get the a slaughterhouse fastest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cev-xluk3T8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItMjosjgvC8
*sigh*
Oh, I forgot this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEAhLdKhztw
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMuGueqs8F0 (0:04 – 0:11)
Happy – You can show them a better way and make suggestions, but you need to earn their trust first. It will take a lot of time and repetition. I trained horses for a freind of mine in Mexico. It took almost a year for people there to believe in my way (natural horsemanship). You are going to have the following obstacles:
1. If you are woman you have no credibility.
2. As a non-hispanic you are an outsider and may not be trusted.
In the end you cannot expect to change a person’s culture. This is how they grew up, and they have done things this way for hundreds of years. It would be like asking you not to put up a Christmas tree because it kills trees.
Kind of like buying trees you can plant after? or reusable artificial trees?
People need to stop using culture and tradition as things to hide behind in animal abuse. Its not like their way of life is built soley around animal abuse! if they stop these abusive training methods they will still have tradition, and culture, and animals that are truly beautiful and happy to help them show it off.
That video of Andreas Helgstrand on Blue Hors Matine shows tail wringing in a very interesting way. When the horse is asked to do tight, complex movements, it starts wringing its tail and (to me anyway) looks very intent, a sort of “Um, um, OK, OK, one two three four five six seven EIGHT” kind of expression, and then when it’s asked to do bigger, more flowing movements, its tail smooths right out and it just looks more relaxed all over. I wonder if Helgstrand deliberately wrote the routine to alternate the tough and easy bits in this way.
Wasn’t there another video linked here that showed a woman and her horse dancing next to each other, no tail action whatsoever? IIRC they were doing the kind of thing that the Boys of the Chorus used to do in Busby Berkely productions. I almost expected the horse to produce a top hat and tip it to the audience and it looked very pleased with itself the whole time. If you want to teach a horse to dance, that’s how you do it!
I was wondering about the tail swishing in that video too.
I used to have a horse with string halt, and I didn’t ask him for flying changes because he wasn’t able to do them when I first began riding him. After he built muscle, and learned to carry himself better and step under more, he became strong enough that he started doing them on his own, but he swished his tail every time. I know they were hard for him, but they can’t have been that uncomfortable because he was never forced (or even asked really) to do them. I always assumed that the tail swishing was more of an effort thing, kind of like when you swing your arms to jump. I wonder if thats what we are seeing here, since the swishing happens on the difficult movements, and this horse is getting tremendous lift. I know the movements are possible without the swishing but does the swishing in something like this always mean discomfort or unhappiness? The horse looks pretty happy otherwise. Anyone know more about it who can tell me?
I agree about the tail swishing. I don’t really buy in to the attitude that tail-swishing always means discomfort/anoyance/resistance. It’s more an expression of effort and concentration, similar to how a person might have furrowed brows, a frown, and “look angry”, when they’re solving a crossword puzzle, practising a difficult piece of music, or lifting weights–and actually enjoying themselves very much!
If the tail is clamped, or flapping up and down, then I’d say the horse is unhappy.
I feel sick down to the pit of my stomach–to see that is extremely disturbing and heartbreaking…
“Too bad so many are too f’ing lazy and/or untalented to achieve this and the result is a stream of discarded lame, traumatized horses that will wind up as a steak. Just sickening.”
No truer words spoken!!!
To my knowledge, Blu Hors Matine has never performed at such a high level after the WEG of 2006 — the video we see. This is what happens when trainers take talented, willing youngsters — she was nine when she performed at WEG — and push them until they break down. She is now a broodmare, living in a lovely pasture and having babies “naturally” rather than going the surrogate route.
I wonder how these Pakistanian horses are trained:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt0EjOtb8a8&feature=related
Jenny Islander – that’s part of why I enjoy watching it. She’s a pretty young mare, 8 or 9 at this competition I think, and I love her ears and tail and the apparent concentration she has. I think the two of them are a great team – she just looks like she’s dancing and certain moments her ears or tail are moving in time to the beat! Wish I was that good ^_^
what. the. f***. that’s something new to me. what ever the crap that is, it’s not a piaffe. i for one like my horses standing still in cross ties.
i board in the same stable as one of my countries leading dressage riders and let me tell you – there is a lot of hard work that goes into those horses. every single day. i’ve seen her take a green broke horse and train her to the level of Prix St George. it took over 4 years. but let me tell you – now their just amazing to watch and their still moving forward
about rollkur. the problem is that it’s not really possible to ban rollkur from dressage competitions. i mean where does the line go? every horse that has a habit of going behind the vertical is not being rollkured. how overflexed is too overflexed, does the nose have to touch the chest? whats the definition here? also, overflexion to the sides can actually help the horse to loosen up – but is that rollkur too? is it only rollkur when you are doing it on purpose?
but then we see videos like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k and after that you can’t help but think – find a way to stop this!!! Many show jumpers are also not without guilt (one word: draw-rains).
one more thing: what is a Rollkur noseband? I don’t think i’ve ever come across the term.
@Renaissance: From what I know, rollkur noseband is a hard, padded band that attaches to the levers of the bit. It puts a lot of pressure on horses nose – painful in fact. I hate it because there is no way a horse can get comfortable with it – never mind how much it overflexes, the pressure on the nose is still there.
I am trying to be open and get as much research done by myself before I approve or disaprove a training technique. With running/side reins – I find then helpful as a mean to help horse understand what u actually want then do. But I also know some riders who use them just to control their horses – “oh, my stallion is so pushy, there is no way I can stop him in the forest without running rein” – that makes me sick.
I was trying to teach my mare some “new tricks” – the mare is 15 and for better part of her life she was just a trail horse / pasture ornament. I decided she might learn some more. She has always been carrying her head rather high. Even when you bring her whole body to a nice frame using leg pressure and body balance, the head just does not follow. My trainer advised me gentle use of running reins for 15 minutes each session (supported with bdy balance and leg work of coarse) to show her the right way. After couple of rides she got it so I stopped using it.
I am not a native speaker and I cannot find the word u call straps that go from the bit to the sides of the saddle. Any help?
Maybe you mean side-reins?
A Rollkur noseband is a crank noseband that is padded and has a strap basically joining two rings together that allows you to literally force the jaws shut so the horse cannot open it’s mouth to evade the bit.
A drop noseband does the same thing but is not allowed in Dressage, so they evaded the issue bu inventing this new method of torture.
As it works on the jaws, rather than the nose, as the horse tries to open it’s mouth tremendous pressure is put on the teeth and upper jaw of the animal.
A drop noseband works in a different way and, correctly adjusted, can be a real aid.
The crank is just a torture implement.!
I couldn’t finish watching the videos. This makes me furious! I wanted that horse that was tied up to kick that guy in the head with the whip! I wanted to pony to buck that little boy off and I wanted that guy with the foal to be double barreled! Seriously, I was thinking very violent thoughts and if any of them would of happened….I would have laughed my ass off!
I’ve been reading the blog for about a year, but never registered or commented. I don’t have a horse, and I haven’t been on a horse since I was about 18. I’ve picked up some things between here and reading horse fiction, so, I’ll be the first to say that I know squat.
But, I used to ride a few summers at a barn connected to my summer camp, so, all of four days every summer from ages 9-12. This barn had a horse that did something like this and he would sidestep sometimes too, both all on his own, usually when he got bored or the kid who was riding him had no idea what they were doing. They told us he was an old retired circus horse, but I’ve always doubted that. Was he maybe actually the result of misguided dressage?
Sellsbells, I like the second vid you posted, particularly where he’s riding one-handed – with slack most of the time. Proof positive that proper control is NOT in the hands!
Zebradreams07, this is Richard Hinrichs, a very popular trainer in my area (Lower Saxony, Germany). I saw him ride at some shows/fairs – he´s faboulous. His horses really REALLY can dance and he on top of them barely moves. Incredible to watch.
@kates_aidan: “If I had to venture a guess as to the value of the Dressage horse you posted I’d say at least $150,000, most likely more depending on his lineage.”
Probably more, yes. The only price I can find related to him is the breeding prices (sorry for not knowing the English terminologies). It’s at $236 for the actual … “deed” to be done, and after the mare has been 90 days pregnant, it’s another $835. (Using today’s exchange rates.) This link: http://www.waldhof.se/hingstarna.htm has their stallions/studs, it’s the same price range for breeding from all of them, as far as I can see for a good reason.
On the youtube video, someone chimed in and stated that he’s for sale for E 400,000.
My personal view of the freestyle “dancing with horses” stuff is that it was someone’s way to market high-level horsemanship to appeal to more people–dressage for the masses so when NBC presents the summer Olympics, horse lovers get to see more dressage/three-day and less synchronized swimming.
FEI dressage has been likened to watching cement set/paint dry (by those with no desire to come up with a new cliche), but it’s like with anything else that is new/unique. The eye of the viewer must be developed/educated so he/she can truly “see” what is going on when dressage (at any level, frankly) is ridden correctly and well. The same can be said for any discipline, too. Some people woohoo when a cutting horse “crabs” across the arena, following the cow. That is not what cutting horses are supposed to do, but to the uninitiated, crabbing looks really cool.
I’ve been actively involved in the learning process for dressage for 11 years and can’t ride dressage worth sour owl poop, but I’m better than I was, and my eye is improved to the point that I can see what’s “wrong” with someone’s performance as I watch (peeking now and then) as I scribe while the judge gives comments and marks/scores.
Anyone using abusive shortcuts to train a horse in ANY discipline should be subjected to the same kind of treatment. My next-door neighbor is of the “tie the head to the tail” school and a horse with “cherries in the corner of the mouth” at the end of a training session mean the session was a good one. Old school (and old neighbor).
Isn’t scribing awesome? I’ve learned so much–not only about dressage and what I want to aspire to and need to work on, but also about which judges I want to ride for!
Only a crackhead would call the tortured movements of these poor horses dancing! During the pre-race coverage of the Breeder’s Cup Classic, they did a segment on Zenyatta’s “dancing” in the paddock referring to her goofy stepping and showing off. The announcer made a point of saying that she was OK because in some circles people are smart enough to know that weird, unnatural movements aren’t a good thing.
My OTTB is a dancer. After a good gallop he does his victory dance arching his neck, prancing and snorting. If the classic rock station plays Lynerd Sknyerd during our arena work, he does this beboppy kind of thing with his steps and swings his head in time to the music…very cute. When the song stops he goes back to normal. Maybe I can start whoring myself out as a Magikal Dancing Horse Trainer?
Given that for that segment ESPN/ABC brought in Len Goodman of “Dancing With The Stars” to “analyze” Zenyatta (whose ‘dancing’ looks like a combination of normal TB pre-race bouncies combined with her extreme overstride when she walks), I think it’s a safe bet that bit about dancing horses was intended to be firmly tongue in cheek and not remotely connected to pillars and ‘horse dancing.’
Cranky picky Len even gave Zenyatta a 10.
Anyone can claim to love an animal. This summer I went to a circus. Now, I have no problem with circuses as long as the animals are being treated fairly. Heck there was just an article in Equus or something similar that showed that circus horses have fewer ulcers than pleasure horses. Anyways. This was the “Family Fun Circus” and lemme tell ya, the animals weren’t having fun. I got there and a llama, mini donk, camel, mini mare, and young mini foal were tied to a trailer in the sun. The camel was the only one not distressed by a lack of water. I ended up having to throw a fit and make a huge scene to get the animals water. The guy in charge of the animals was Mexican, and told me over and over “I love the animals!” I told him if he loved the animals, he would make sure they had water! I eventually was asked to leave, not that I planned on giving them any of MY money after watching the neglect. I filed a complaint with the police department and left messages with APHIS but nothing ever happened
I did later here from some onlookers that it was rather epic to see me totally let that guy have it, but keep my cool.
Bottom line, anyone can claim to love an animal, and then abuse and/or neglect it.
In every photo of that poor little guy, he is standing spraddle-legged in front and pointing his left hind leg. The wide stance in front shows that he’s taken too much rider weight too soon, and the left hind is in some kind of big trouble already, whether it be hip, stifle, hock or foot (all of the above?) He also looks quite weedy into the bargain. This stuff makes one ashamed of being a human!
This atrocity is found in several other genres of the horse industry. I am closest to the calf roping world. It takes years to develop a confident, consistent, high quality roping horse. And guess what… there are lazy idiots in this industry as well. Everything from breakaways that slap the horse when the roper is running down the rope to hooking them up to electricity. Seriously?!?! Where do you go from there. Really. What do you do when electricity stops working? This REALLY pisses me off. It’s bad for horses, it’s bad for clients and it’s exactly why the equine industry has the reputation that it has. Thanks for doing what you can FHOTD in the way of raising awareness.
This is a value judgment. And who I am to have values?
This dancing horse nonsense is just as perverse as the idea that children whose parents who never pick up a book should be able to READ. People don’t dance. Why should horses?
The horses in these videos looked bottled-up and miserable.
Dancing—and music—mean rhythm, organization, expression. I don’t see any of these in these horses. It’s not their job, nor should it be. They have their own rhythm. It’s stupid to make them try to adopt ours when we can’t do it ourselves.
And while I’m at it, dressage is a discipline and a craft, but it isn’t an art. And riders don’t dance with their horses. Nothing demeans the practice of dressage like the elephantine cuteness of the “dancing” concept. I’d like to see these riders try to do the meringue.
Let’s master our own lives before we inflict our silly values on our animals.
His feet need to be taken care of too. They are terrible and to be doing that on a board for how many hours? I wont be surpirsed that horse has lameness issues either now or later on in the future. I dont know what kind of moves are those but its not natural. The horse looks mad and isnt enjoying what he is doing.
Oh that photo – he looks all wrong.
“trailer-park dressage” is a spot on assesment imo.
~DD
For several years, I worked for an equine vet outside a metroplotian KS area. On very few occasions, we were called out to local Mexican horse squatter properties. These were truly “squatters” as they would set up shop on land that was plowed for crops, but for one reason or another, left barren. I assume they must have paid the land owner *something* as they would often stay for years. Anywhoo, their barns were a collection of sheets of plywood, tarps, and metal panels tied together with the notorious baling wire and duct-tape. They were not pretty, functional, or safe. The “arenas” ALWAYS had plywood walls up high enough that passing motorists could not see what was going on behind them. I knew enough that I didn’t want to see, anyway. Their “pastures” were half azzed barbwire fences around whatever weeds sprung up on the barren land. Rarely would there be hay, or a sufficient source of water for all the animals. There were often dead horses lying in the pastures, or along the road, where they had been hit by cars. You could always tell when AC had been finally paid a visit, because POOF every horsew ould dissappear overnight, only to be found setting up another squatter village many miles away.
After seeing what I have personally seen in those barns, the *care* the horses are given, I will NEVER say that the Mexican culture respects horses and holds them in high honor, or takes good care of them. NEVER. My employer treated these animals because if she didn’t, they would only suffer and die. She always supported what few owners made an effort to do right by their horse. The majority did not enlist in any veterinary care…
I wish I could say that we will soon see an end to this kind of torture, but I am betting I will only see it grow during my lifetime. Just like the Hispanic population…
Ok, I only got about 5 seconds into the last vid, and then turned it off. Heck, it looks like they’ve done that to the poor foal about a jillion times before anyone got a camera rolling! He looks even younger than my rescue colt (about 8mos) who just had his first CLIPPING today. I prob won’t start him until he’s AT LEAST 2 1/2. And they’re trying to get a 3-5 mo colt do to what my next door neighbor’s 9 yo DW is just STARTING to do? total BS.
aaaahhh!!!!
omfg… I must say, I am really glad that you write this blog to educate. But, christ, it’s also really depressing!
This is the first I have heard of ‘dancing.’ Whoa. Yep, you hit the nail on the head, this is “trailer park dressage.” The two poles thing comes straight from classical dressage training (still used in the Spanish Riding School). What they are calling ‘dancing’ is a deformed, mutant piaffe.
The popularity and cache of dressage has clearly reached new levels, extending beyond abusive show dressage. That’s just fantastic.
I used to be a dressage fanatic but the last ten years or so have really left a bad taste in my mouth. Dressage as an art is beautiful, but dressage a competitive sport has become very, very ugly. And now the dressage disease is apparently spreading. YUCK.
I’m embarrassed to say that at Wisconsin’s biggest horse event, Midwest Horse Fair one of the Mustang Challenge trainers was cheered for ‘training’ his mustang to ‘dance’… I think they were even in the top 10. At the risk of being politically incorrect Mexican performances were over the top….huge bits, spurs, whips were everywhere, the same nervous jigging hopping behind the bit….fear driven training, the crowd loved it. So what is worse….the trainer who doesn’t see their method is cruel or the spectator who is just looking for the glitter and flash. Ignorance on both parts. But since the Wisconsin State Horse council runs the big show AND has hired Dianne Eppers (see past FUGLY on trainers) as a ‘top’ clinician for next year maybe we can get their attention…like…..hello, what are you thinking !!
Renaissance -
In my opinion, it would be defined as the rider clearly holding the horse’s head in an unnatural position. If the horse is dropping behind the bit there should be slack in the reins, since the rider should be asking the horse to stretch into the bridle. I think that lateral flexion is ok as long as it’s within the parameters they would flex to in test movements, and not held for long.
Mariska –
I think you need to write a freestyle for Free Bird!
Poor little fugly guy isn’t going to be sound by the age of 6! What’s with the “dancing” on hard surfaces to boot? The clickity-clack of hooves is awesome? Does it teach the horse rhythm?
I had a flagging party as I watched those videos. I am sure they won’t be removed, it’s cultural y’all!
Tolerance is going to kill the United States. “Dancing horses” and Mexican rodeo are just cover names for cruelty. Shame!!
That poor baby. UGH! JUST UGH! I don’t know what possesses someone to ride a horse that young, let alone to put a curb bit in his mouth. Just sick. There was a 3 year old in similar training at a barn I was at for a short time last year. He was a stud, Paint, Impressive bred and of course the owner had no idea his HYPP status. He’d work that colt into a froth nearly daily, and tie him short in his stall tacked up. We didn’t stay long.
However, my large draftX mare dances. Not in pillars, not in cross ties, and often just because she wants something. My SO taught her to ‘dance’ (she lifts one front foot up to her elbow at a time, its pretty ridiculous to watch) along with other tricks as a bonding thing–she’d been abused. There was no whip cracking, just touching her knee with a dressage whip, now you just point at each leg with your hand. She will also do it on her own to beg for cookies, silly mare.
Okay, I know nice Mexican dancing horses that are trained well. They are owned by the people that have Ixtapa in Duvall, WA. They have horses they’ve imported from Europe themselves, and they go beautifully and are VERY well taken care of. They’re just a delight to watch. Unfortunately, its a few and far between thing:-(
But honestly, beautiful suspension, relaxed, and not stressed. Gear fits well, no flogging involved. And as soon as they pat their necks, they totally relax. I went trail riding with one of these horse and he was great out there to; just doing his job like a pro.
But I haven’t liked the other 99%….
Blu Hors Matine didn’t break down; she slipped while being unloaded from a trailer and twisted an ankle, which never quite got right after that despite hydrotherapy, lots of time off, etc. We all know how a small incident can sometimes cause permanent damage in a perfectly sound horse – or person. Here’s a thread about her, and an article:
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/blu-hors-matine-281811.html
http://www.equisearch.com/equiwire_news/nancy_jaffer/wcbluehors_041807/
Of course everyone knows MY opinion on rollkur. =) Someone had asked a question about where to draw between what is rollkur and what is a horse that just happens to dip behind the verticle now and then. It is one thing if a horse dips behind the verticle for various reasons such as evading contact, feeling unbalanced, or even the common problem that riders just starting out in dressage have not yet figured out how to use lifting the horse’s back in order to connect the hind end to the front end and are mistakingly giving incorrect (but not abusive) rounding aides. It is quite another thing to plant your ass in the saddle, jam all of your weight into your stirrups with your lower leg out in front of you, and use all of that leverage to grab your horse’s mouth and reel his neck into a ball. When it’s intentional and forced, that’s rollkur. I don’t think it matters if it’s to the degree of the chin touching the chest or not. Different horses with different conformation are going to have varying degrees of what is too much flexion for them. My horse has a very long neck and very thin throatlatch and it is so easy for him to dip behind my contact. It’s one thing that I have to always keep in mind, making sure he doesn’t use that long flexible neck to manipulate my aides. At times, that is the lesser of priorities for whatever I happen to be working on and if I spent all of my time worrying about him falling behind the verticle then I’d never get anywhere. For example, in training level when I had to teach him to do a stretchy trot on long rein, in order to teach him the idea of stretching I had to allow him to sort of do it on his own terms. Once he learned the cue, I revised it by making sure he maintained the connection consistently while he transitioned into and out of the stretch. If I spent all of my time focusing on him doing it perfectly the first time, he never would have gotten it, he would have just gotten tense and confused which is counterproductive to the stretch. But the difference is that I was compromising by allowing him to drop slightly behind the verticle for a moment on barely any rein contact and then fixed it as soon as I could. I was not forcing him to do it against his will. Now, years later, my horse rarely if ever goes behind the verticle because he’s been trained not to, and he has lovely lifted shoulders and uphill movement and is very happy and relaxed with his work.
BTW, absolutely disgusted at all of those videos. Especially that pony with the little kid. I was hoping it would have run away kicking when he rolled off of it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XAlfM-OI94
I found this to be cute. No tying up and no whips involved.
Did I miss something? I have to comment again. I just watched the videos since I can’t see them at work. Were the dancing horses ever hit or beaten with the whip? I never saw the whip contact the horse in any of the videos. The main problem is the age of the foals. In the latter video, the poor guy is only 9 months old.
At least these horses are getting some kind of training, whether people have mexicanophobia or not. I’m so sick of seeing all the horses listed for sale now that are 5 – 10 years old and are barely halter broke….”must git rid of ASAP”.
I hate this stuff.. It reminds me of the Charro thing and she who won’t be mentioned, and other horse torturers, that we’ve all heard about. It’s my idea of crap.. and abusive treatment. Mexican rodeos should be against the law in this country, I don’t care about the fact that it’s someone’s tradition, it’s abuse. And this is America. Not Mexico. There is something wrong with people who abuse and torture animals, it’s a short step away from doing the same to humans. Sleep with one eye open…
Thank you so much for mentioning the http://www.dressagedisgrace.com. It brought over 1,100 visitors to the site and will hopefully do a huge amount to help spread the word of the campaign to ban Rollkur.
There are new articles being added to the site every week and we will also be featuring interviews with well known equestrian trainers who support the campaign. Your readers can listen to a wonderful interview with Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling at Rollkur Teleseminar. The next call coming up the 6th December will feature Carolyn Resnick.
There is also a page on the site, where people can find information with which to write and complain about rollkur.
Thank you again.
This is just plain cruel, stipid and irresponsible. Leave alone the whole posts and whip thing. How retard does one need to be to even think about teaching a 2 yr old horse advanced dressage figures? This poor guy needs plenty of ground work to build up some muscles on his neck and back to be even able trotting and cantering with a rider on… What this horse does is just an irritating spot trot my mare does when she is extremely anxious and stressed which I hate. It has nothing to do with piaff or dance or whatsoever….
I am the first one to smack my horse when she misbehaves and only when she misbehaves. But this whole dancing thong i ridiculous.
Sorry i couldnt watch that video, I have seen it before , and its horrific. On a better note, the “spanish dancing” thing can be done nicely. My trainers girlfriend is teaching it to her miniature horse . I have watched , and this is what she does. The horse is in a halter , lead rope free of tension, just loose and relaxed. She stands in front of him, takes a driving “whip” and touches the hoof with the dangly piece of string on the end of the stick….when he pickes up his hoof she rewards him with a piece of carrot, and naturally takes the contact away from his hoof. Its very soft, stress free, and only done for like 3 min per session , and maybe 2 times a week. The horse is fine, and happy. The training method may be slow, but I believe all training worth doing is done slowly so that the horse has time to figure out WTF your are trying to teach him. I think humans are naturally inconsistant therefore we need to give the horse lots of time to figure out our mixed messages. Very few trainers are consistant , and good, and even those are “professionals ” that have learned how to train over years and years of expierence. Now I am just ranting like a fool, but I hate people that call themselves a trainer , when they should be calling themselves an abuser.
Here’s my favorite “Rollkur” video (note: all are winning Grand Prix riders):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JRzfocp5E&feature=fvsr
Here’s an example of two rollkur trained horses. Note: the video is in slow motion and shows beyond a doubt that neither horse is working from behind, don’t round their backs at all and can’t get under themselves. It’s all front end action folks! Winning dressage is a joke today. A Miracle Come True? Not for the horses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ5ogdpeMmg
It occurs to me that many people want to own and use horses (and other animals) for their personal pleasure, but a good number don’t seem to have much respect for them as feeling, thinking creatures.
Thus, rollkur, “dancing horses” and all the other abuses we hear about on this board.
Completely OT: http://nashville.craigslist.org/grd/1475647677.html
Chryptorchid 3 year old stallion already has mares bred (that are also for sale on Craigslist…also 3 years old). Just what the world needs, more fugly headed, no assed, hardly gaited low end walking horse babies popping out more fugly headed, weird necked, no assed low end walking horses. But hey, they have a World Grand Champion somewhere way back on their papers! And we know you have to breed, then ride…Same guy also has one of the saddest looking “appendix” geldings for sale – apparently, he doesn’t know what a neck and hip is supposed to look like on ANY breed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Date: 2009-11-20, 10:48PM CST
Reply to: sale-us6yx-1475647677@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
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3 year old Gray Tennessee Walking Horse Stallion for Sale “McDreamy” Reg. # 20606781
15.2 hands. By Pusher’s Winning Secret out of The Skywatch Girl. This stallion is the best tempered stallion I’ve been around. He can be successfully trail ridden with mares. He only has one testicle that has dropped but has successfully bred multiple mares for us this past spring and summer. Great mover and can be ridden by most anyone. Backs well and moves hindquarters laterally. Breed him in the spring, ride him all summer. $1750 FIRM Call 615.274.2584 or 615. 587.2405.
OT:
Yipes that’s a skinny neck on a 3yr old…
http://eastidaho.craigslist.org/grd/1454056633.html
That horse will do that every time he gets scared or nervous. It’s simply abuse, but the public who see this aren’t educated enough to realise how traumatised the horse is. I think they’re trying for a piaffe, but are too thick to realise that THAT is not it.
I actually had a dressage lesson today, on my fave pony Isaac (14.1hh morgan), who not only rounded up and went on the bit, but ignored the horrible windy/rainy weather (usually VERY scared of that), but gave me a gorgeous walk/canter transition. In the lesson, my instructor did stand him square and use a dressage whip to tickle the front of his cannons (one front leg at a time) to get him to lift his leg up. He was really good at it, and was even smoother to ride afterwards. It was NOTHING like the ‘training’ that twat was doing.
On a brighter note, anyone who wants a laugh should Youtube “French and Saunders Ponies”. <–comedians doing a sketch with horses. Jennifer Saunders (on the grey) actually has horses, not sure about Dawn French though. =)
Thanks for the correction, Cassandra, regarding Blu Hors Matine. I had always heard that she had been pushed and broke down. No “snopes” to check my facts.
Lateral flexion of the neck is not rollkur. It is a common and correct warm up exercise designed to relax the neck muscles and reduce the tendency some horses have to brace against the contact, and to work on the shoulder control needed for lateral movements. Extreme lateral flexion, that is to say bringing the horse’s nose all the way around to the shoulder, is generally used only as a ground stretch after work…but remains beneficial.
Rollkur is not beneficial in any way. Loosening up the neck and spine is achieved in the free walk, correctly, when the horse is asked to stretch down through its neck and spine, *lengthen* the neck and lower the head. This is the very first preliminary step towards collection, because you can’t have true collection without lengthening. There is a reason ‘lengthening of the stride’ is in lower level tests, long before collection is asked for. It is easier for the horse to lengthen its frame than shorten it, and lengthening gains control over the length of the frame before moving up to the physically harder collected work.
Rollkur is a short cut to make a horse *seem* collected. It is not.
I live in Texas… don’t get me started on this shit! FHT! F*cking Human Trash! Just calling this south of border shit exactly what it is! I drive by this crap everyday! And That IS My opinion, I’ve earned it!
WTF?! I have never seen anything like that in my life. I can’t believe those horse put up with that crap. God bless those horses, they need all the blessings they can get with shitty-ass owners that they have.
I spent years learining dressage, though I didn’t get to a very high level. But I did read the masters-deKunfy, Podjasky,(forgive my spelling) etc. People forget that dressage is also a verb, as well as noun. Dressage is supposed to benefit the horse, and correctly practiced, can benefit any horse. I have tried to understand the benefits of Rollkur (that’s actually a derogatory slang work for the practice) even though it looks uncomfortable for the horses. Someone who didn’t know about yoga could go to a yoga class and not understand why people were engaging in those horrible tortuous poses (of course humans volunteer, and can stop the poses when they want to). But everything I’ve read indicates that Rollkur benefits the human performers, not the horses. Same with this horrible Mexican trailer park dressage. I live in SoCal and work with animal control officers a lot- they indicate that their are lots of other abusive “traditional”training practices, including tying the horses’ heads up for hours at a time, and denying them food and water.
THIS is horse dancing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw&feature=related
Being an avid dressage enthusiast, I could go on and on about it… but seriously, what gets me, is that it is considered such an amatuer error. In the same ballpark as see-sawing. Everyone who has a decent amount of experience in dressage should have heard at least once or twice that it is not about the head and neck, it is about the entire horse STARTING with the hind end and MOST importantly maintaining relaxation of the muscles through the topline. I recently gave a speech on dressage to a local 4H group and even the non-dressage kids knew this. So why are the “professionals” making this mistake, causing their horses to trot around with their backs drooping down and their hocks flailing around out behind them? And being rewarded for it? Ahhhhhhh I could go on and on…
Ooops… Am scrolling-challenged. Someone already posted the link of Blue Hors Matine & there have been many comments. My abject apologies…
The tail swishy thing caught my attention too, but I bite my fingernails when I’m really focused, so a little swishy during a sashay doesn’t bug me too much. Anyone ever been to Caribana in Toronto – there’s a whole lotta bootie shakin’ going on during that parade. Besides, the mare did look like she was having fun. So what if she never competed much more and is now happily making non-fuglies? I should be so lucky – har har. Successful TB studlies get to retire at age three after all. I retire in 2023 – but who’s counting.
To FHOTD:
http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2009/nov/11/stolen-dreamer-20000-riding-horse-reported-missing/
Could you put this up for the Floridian horse folks? This horse was stolen and it breaks my heart.
Wow, I didn’t catch the update at the bottom. She was found dead, probably killed by a Florida panther. Poor fencing? Maybe it wasn’t a theft.
HSUS offering $2500.00 for information on whomever dumped the 5 horses in the Pierce County forest:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/70696547.html
Meanwhile, Judy Caton? Not a squeak.
I, unfortunately, live next door to some mexican “trainers”, who train this crap to their horses. I was out working with my horse one day in the summer, and kept hearing a “clop clop” coming from next door. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. They had the horse on a piece of plywood, with a huge bit in his mouth, reins tied to the horn so that his mouth was nearly up against his chest. They were whipping him to make him do “the dance” and were punishing him when he stepped off the plywood. It totally made me sick.
I completely disagree with everything my neighbors do with their horses. There’s something seriously wrong when it takes four people catch the horse (after chasing it around for 15 minutes and finally roping it), two people to saddle it, and two people to hold the horse while a third one mounts.
Needless to say, I refuse to ride with them, or associate myself with them at all.
Yes, AC is a joke or non-existent in Eastern WA. A large part of the problem is anytime a sheriff or officer tries to do anything, they get accused of racism! (Anybody on here from Grandview WA?)
It’s just as bad for dogs. My cousins live out in the country in Yakima County in was must be the most popular dog-dropping spot in the country. They get at least 6 new stray dogs a month showing up at their house. They ran into some legal trouble because one of the dogs killed a neighbor dog, the neighbors called the sheriff and told them it was my cousin’s dog. When the sheriff came over, that dog, along with 5 or 6 others were hanging out in the yard! The sheriff told my cousin that if a stray dog is hanging around your property for 3 days or more then it is your legal responsibility! He told them they had two options, 1st they could drive to Yakima (an hour away) on Mondays first thing in the morning and pay 25 dollars to have each dog euthed at the humane society, or option two was to shoot the dogs dead the moment they showed up!
I have to add something to the discussion about “tradition” and “culture.” A few of us have been bashing Mexican horse trainers, and we have every right to bash this “horse dancing” crap as well as Mexican rodeos. But in the same discussion, we’re (correctly) bashing rollkur, as well as other abusive practices popular in American/European culture.
My point is, we shouldn’t paint all Mexican horse trainers with the same brush. I mean, the BYB fugly breeder in this country believes that the “American Way” means he has every right to use or abuse his horses as he sees fit without dictation from “the gubmint”, the Amish believe their lifestyle gives them a pass from any interference from “outsiders,” then there’s rollkur practised by “progressive” cultures, etc.
I’m sure there are horse people in Mexico who do things right. Maybe they don’t attract our attention because they are successful where they are–it’s the Mexican equivalents of our own BYBs who choose to cross the border illegally and perpetuate their abusive techniques here, those are the ones we hear about.
Off to google trainers in Mexico, hoping to prove my point…
Fugly, I’m liking this new format for comments! Definitely cuts down on wasteful scrolling.
OT but OMG:
http://www.trentriders.com/cgi-bin/bizdir/bizdir.pl?details&horsesforsalelease&1256154175&
OT. He’s lazy and a willing trail horse….
[img]http://www.horseville.com/photos/main/234323.jpg[/img]
Maybe she’s using velcro? And I think I am seeing no shoes at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMlWddHbY8
I think the video of him verifies the no shoes, and that he is interestingly built.
That looks like a Draft/appy cross that did NOT come out well. (I have seen some very, very NICE Draft/appy crosses, mind)
I just had another few “pretty” videos to show you all, other than the few I have seen you guys post.
First off, here is another “wonderful” example of a horse that has been scared to death into “dancing”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npr8d4v2e5k
I would also encourage you to take a look at their other videos, such as this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOChRc8HAsU
The poor horse flinches at the sight of the guy, who then procedes to flick a whip at him into the “beautiful” movement of “dancing”…..
WHAT GOES THROUGH THESE PEOPLE’S MINDS TO THINK THIS IS A GOOD IDEA, OR THAT IT IS PRETTY?
Please reply with your comments, I would really like to hear your opinions on this. I did not see ANY of the videos that this person posted having a calm or happy looking horse. Also note the totally uneven surface that the posts are on.
Oh, and take a look at this one, where they use a hose to get the fresian to “dance” for a crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MATCH169#p/u/8/p8Tqz9YkwfU
The good Charros are far out numbered by the inhumane. Sadly. But the culture of Charros is the driving point behind their actions- the same kind that treat their horses in this manner are also the types to breed the hell out of their fighting dogs, use donkeys for cattle roping practice, buy up ponies and foals for tripping, and think nothing wrong with cock fighting. As younger generations come along- through education and positive influence- we can make a difference and eventually disuade much of the inhumane treatment/training.
In the meantime- if you’d like to save one of these dancing horses- they usually breakdown at a young age (mentally and/or physically) and can be found for little money at a few auctions in the southwest. A ‘dancing’ mare recently sold at auction in Mira Loma, CA for $180.
i am reasonably local to these folks, and i have to say that this culture is PERVASIVE out here.
it’s referred to as ‘charro’ (negatively, i might add). mexican culture has all but taken over in a significant part of our state because our local and state gov’ts support the illegal population. (talk about representation without taxation, but that is a discussion for another time…)
there is a significant amount of arrogance and bravado that come with traditional mexican culture. they’re a very very proud people. and their horses are forced to make them look even more so.
it breaks my heart to open the california horsetrader and see so many horses for sale advertised as ‘dancing’. (used to be a decent freebie rag for the latest local horse news and sales ads for really amazing horses, but this is more common now) while i have a strong appreciation for good, traditional spanish horsemanship, i HATE mexican charro crap because all of the horses are resistant, spooky, nervous and miserable. however, the culture often encourages it – same as dog and cock fighting. and yes, while every culture has it’s ignorancies, mexico in general has been sitting in the dark ages for a very long time. it’s not just their animals that are treated this way, but often their people as well. heartbreaking indeed. we’ve got folks like this that are neighbors to where my horse is kept and it’s just no fun to see them out riding. (and i have to say it’s only men – i’ve never once seen a woman riding a ‘dancing’ horse or out with the men riding dancing horses)
one time i took my nieces on a trail ride in the valley up in lakeview terrace. the guy who lead the ride (was just the 3 of us) didn’t speak a lick of english but i suspect he thought my nieces attractive. he beat his poor horse repeatedly with a heavy bull-snapped end of a lead rope to get him to ‘dance’. i suspect he thought we were impressed. by the end of the ride i wanted to rip him off his horse and beat HIM with said lead snap until HIS eyes started rolling around in his head out of fear and pain. there is absolutely no excuse for this. it may be not politically correct to point a finger at a culture specifically but this is serious abuse.
also – to those of you who think this is a substitute for dressage – it’s not. it has nothing to do with any form of dressage – it’s simply bravado and show. i know several people who have had to ‘retrain’ charro-broke horses and it’s just amazing to see the transformation that happens. this is a thinly guised cover of abuse. and it’s something that is so steeped in the culture that i don’t think a lifetime will remove it. most of mexico is still stuck in the dark ages unfortunately. i know it’s not in the least bit politically correct to point a finger at a particular culture but this one is certainly earning it. it’s easy to ignore when it stays south of the border but when it stops on your front step (or behind your back pasture as the case may be) it becomes much more apparent. certainly not all mexican/hispanic horsemen are like this, but this does seem to be the rule, not the exception. very sad. and the actual horse CARE usually depends on the specific people. i’ve never seen a necessarily ‘neglected’ dancing horse in this area – most of them live on large properties and are well cared for as far as feed/grooming go. it’s just the training/handling that are the problem. often times their horses are very valuable, usually of some sort of andalusian descent, so they’re usually well cared for.
Comment isn’t about the story but the add under it: “horse going to mexico, but not for the fun jello shooters”
Does the person writing this ad realize that jello is FROM animal bones/hooves/hides? So if a horse is going “for jello” that sounds more to me like he’s looking forward to going to the rendering plant there?
Ad is confusing at best. Or it tells me the person who wrote the ad has no idea what jello is made of.
I’ve been meaning to comment on this one, but kept forgetting. anyways, i found this awesome video. now this is TRUE dressage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxpT45ahxmA
The guy uses NO HANDS. It’s amazing.
Wow.
Imagine hiring that horse and rider as ringers and entering them in some godawful “dancing horse” thing.